Armageddon:

This is a fun one. Bet you guys didn't think my first two projects would be to slow down the Talos and throw the old Armageddon out the window! But! I think its the best thing for the race line overall. What we've done here is make the Armageddon an echo to the new dragoon destroyer. It makes sense for Amarr to have a battleship variation that rewards players who've trained for dragoon -> arbitrator -> prophecy, and with the neut range bonus, the Armageddon should be a huge payoff. As the Armageddon is falling under 'combat' it will receive a substantial hitpoint boost, sensor strength boost, sig increase, and speed decrease.

While we understand that this is a very powerful ship, it should not be oppressive. Hopefully it will offer a new type of challenge to fly and fly against. To anyone who is very sad to see the old Armageddon go, I encourage to you consider that if left the same, it would have been even more crowded by the Abaddon as a result of the price adjustment than it already was. Again, we look forward to your feedback.

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% to Drone damage and Hit Points (replaced large energy turret rate of fire)
+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range (replaced large energy turret cap use)

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 7L(-1); 5 turrets(-2) , 5 launchers(+5)
Fittings: 13500 PWG(-3000), 550 CPU(+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(+1331) / 8500(+1859) / 8000(+1789)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(-5) / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4)
Signature radius: 450 (+80)

I guess you guys need to change this description on the geddon as well, as it is no longer having "heavy armaments and strong front that specially designed to crash into any battle like a juggernaut and deliver swift justice in the name of the Emperor"...

it is more like a support role ship now (which seems it is going to be whether people liked that or not)

Amarr empire do not need to learn the Gallente drones tech, Amarr battleship is to win by energy platform. And I think Amarr empire`s drone technology can not be better than the Gallente`s, also hope to be able to weaken the Amarr`s each level ships drone bay. At last, there are so many Energy Neutralizer ships in EVE, Battleship only need to fire to the enemy.
Each race has its own characteristics, if every race contains various weapon system, then there is no need to points race.

6 turret tachyons capable with 10% dmg bonus Xlvl

well not as high as nightmare

0.49 cap/s does not equate to "cap use bonus pushed to hull". I have this nagging doubt you even fly Amarr or comprehend just how much cap lasers use.

when compared with Rokh or mealstorm this 6 turret idea is not that strong.
or maybe 7 turret with 5% bonues sounds better?

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% to Large Energy Turret damage and optimal range
+7.5% Large Energy Turret tracking speed (replaced large energy turret cap use)

Fixed the bonuses for a 6 turret Apoc. It brings it in just above the current 8 effective turrets at level 5.

role bonus is not going to work. You are not going to have role bonus to only one race.
What are you going to give to the other 3?
I don't think a race should have no battle ship that could even fit 8 of their largest guns. The other 3 have, not Amarr.
So that is why I support the 6 turret idea, that is a kind of 8 turrets in another way.
Tachs with no cap bonus will eat up cap too fast, compared to others.
And thier pg requirement is just a bit too high.

Boo to the Armageddon as a drone ship.

There's too much redundancy here if you make the Arma a drone ship whereas the Dominix is already a drone ship.

What would be the point?

Also, hands off of the 8-turret Apocalypse.

I do agree with this, the new 'Geddon is not an Attack ship, it is, like the Arbitrator, a T1 variant of a Recon ship.

QFT.

Only if you accept that the Domi is going to be 4-bonused.

Which there is a very good reason for based on drones etc and that CCP seems perfectly happy with. So really that isn't an issue

I am not saying this is the best or only solution but at least it is SOME attempt to consolidate the issues of slot repetition for all 3 ships, cap usage, Tach fitting while achieving their tracking/optimal bonused platform intent.

design does not mean anything
we have 4 turrets on a paladin and 4 on a Vargur(6 for tempest)
we used to have 7 on a harbinger and it is not even mirror image allocated.

what's the point for a ship that has range bonus and sniping potencial has 8 turret, when it can never actually fit 8 of the largest long range weapon of the race?

abaddon has worse cap issues than apocalypse.

but they have their desired mid.
Amarr is struggling between dps and tank and now you say you will use that low slot for reactors?

You might consider that apparently this person has never flown an Apoc in anger, nor as part of a fleet. A tracking bonus is a huge boost to these ships in a kiting role.

Laser tracking has always been it's weak point.

Inability to track incoming tacklers and kill them fast enough to leverage their range advantage has always been the Apoc's weak point.

If a workable cap level can be arrived at, then tracking is probably the PERFECT bonus for this ship in it's attack role.

I would respectfully suggest some folks spend less time using EFT and it's bretheren, and more time actually flying the ships they are offering comment on.

I do agree with you on the new player thing and that is for sure.
but as it does not have any dps bonus before, with a battleship skill of 3, it will have almost exatly as much dps as 8 turrets.
(6*1.30=7.8).
that does not cost alot of time to train
And now it would be easier to fit larger guns as only 6 turret is available

btw if the pg is going to be increased and cap regeneratioin boosted, i am perfectly well with things like 8 turrets + no damage bonus.

but it is not going that way, at least not now.

there is no problem with taking pvp first then pve second , there are marauders entirely for pve , when they get the balance pass ,just be rdy to adress your issues

Hello Amarrian citizens

I wanted to drop a quick note to assure you that we are still here monitoring feedback. We've had several discussions about the state of the Amarr mission runner both before we released this proposal and now after we've seen some feedback. So far, we aren't convinced that changes will be necessary, but we are going to keep a close eye on it. This may be a discussion that will be more productive after these ships make it to Singularity and some actual flight testing can happen.

Please keep up the discussion

Hi Rise,

Since you want to give Hyperion and Mega 8 lows, can Amarr bs have 8 lows as well?

At least the geddon?

geddon
6/4/8
+10% to Drone damage and Hit Points
+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range, +3% nuet/nos amount

Please...

Geddon - well someone had to be the Amarr drone BS.

we just get abit too serious in this thread from time to time, I thought peeps could use a joke :)

I have not seen a single post when someone agrees on nerfing abaddon

Yea thats what I mean if I was not clear, possibly. It needs no nerfing at all.

well since all the gallente tearing got what they want i propose this. And tbh, the gallente are just lucky they had good battleships for so many years.

ApocalypseBhaalgorn

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% to Large Energy Turret Rate of fire per level
5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level and Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer drain amount per level
Role bonus: 100% damage to large Energy Turrets

Slot layout: 8H, 4M, 7L; 4(-4) turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 23000 PWG(+2500), 640 CPU(+135)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000(-211) / 7000(-500) / 7000(+359)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 8500(+1000) / 1002s(-152s) / 6.99 (+.49)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 113(+19) / .119(-.017) / 97100000 / 16.02s (-2.29s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 73km(+5.5k) / 95 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Radar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 380(-20)

AmarrNariya Kentaya doesnt NEED a drone BS, weNariya Kentaya dont NEED a BS neut-platform, and weNariya Kentaya sure as hell dont NEED a MISSILE bs.

honestly, only 2 amarr battleships ive seen used in the last 6 months were the geddon adn the abaddon, and the geddon i saw used ALL THE TIME.

people LIKED the old geddon.

in fat, the geddon, at its pricetag, was the only real VIABLE battleship for new players to get into amarr battleships, it was cheap and easy to fit and be effective, with alot of room for fitting more advanced stuff. followed by the navy geddon, this hull has been an example of an amarr battleship, fo all intents and purposes, being done RIGHT.

your killing that ship CCP, if you want a multi-weapon no-real-bonus jack-of-all-trades BS, make a NEW HULL, dont just arbitrarily pick one and beat it to death.

First i'd like to say that i like the new geddon. The new bonuses are great.

Won't lie i'm super excited about the new geddon.

The geddon was my favorite battleship. Of course, flying one in a fleet full of abaddons meant that you'd be the first to die.

And the geddon was/is not easy to fit. The apoc and abaddon had a much easier time fittings-wise.

Also, anyone here witnessed the Cruiser tiericide? It happened just before I started playing so I missed it. I was present and watchign during Battlecruiser one and it didn't seem to evoke so much heated flamewars as this (from my POV) failure of a BS tiericide.

Ok ok for all the guys out there hating me for liking the new geddon:
I don't like loosing it as a laser ship. Just wanted to find one good aspect in the new ships.
Maybe it would be ok to have the old ship with a drone bonus in exchange for the cap Bonus......
Just an idea don't hit me ^^

Yes it is a good one, even my favourate one in Amarr BS.

The problem is just CCP don't like it, or don't like to have 3 laser ships.

Which for me is absolutly okay as that is what Amarr is.

Armageddon is a classic icon. Turning into a a missile boat is a disgrace.

would encourage new players even in missions to fleet up.

That just means that they all need a proper tank, doesn't mean one ship can't be cap support to a few others to make it easier for them to melt the rats with their lasers.

Amarr changes continue to be total butchery, we continue not to get any response that addresses that fact in this thread, etc.

Well apparently, we were wrong and stand corrected by CCP Rise.
Geddon was a bloody dragoon in disguise afterall!

I completely do not understand the idea of CCP hate 5% resistance bonus.

they could have made the Domi into a hybrid platform; that's effectively what they did with the Armageddon.

We, along with many players, feel that this an exciting direction for Amarr. I would ask that you guys accept this draft as more or less set

I looked across as many different environments/metrics as possible and this was a consistent theme.

[Translation:STFU and eat what is served]

Tonto, I thought you and I had a little bit of understanding for each other? This post you've made of (obviously no way to know what original post) is blatant slander and trolling. If you wish to refute something that I've posted, then do so intelligently.

Obviously, we've had the Arbitrator for drone use.

Our usage, over the years, of drones has increased per ship.

represent the embodiment of the Amarrian warfare philosophy

As I mentioned in another post, even the Armageddon used to have a tiny drone bay.

We've also had ships that used missiles. If I remember correctly, several ships had a couple slots here and there, even the Apoc. Memory isn't what it used to be on that one.

Mind our tech 2 variants

And it also isn't uncommon for Amarrians to consider the Bhaalgorn to be an Amarr ship, due to it's style and flair.

The Dragoon is recent, sure. But I still feel like the Abaddon, Harbinger, and t3 Cruisers are a recent addition. Heck, the Prophecy and Coercer weren't added too long ago ...

!WARNING, Real world comparison incoming!:
Do you think that iOS/Android/WinMob fan-boys are what they are because their chosen horse is the best of the best .. i'd wager they are so adamant in their convictions because they cannot cope with the prospect of having to mend their ways or do a full evaluation of the "others" to make an educated decision. Response is what one can read in any thread/forum concerning said systems .. rampant threats, smack, lies and outright denial.

Thus endeth the lesson.

Dear CCP Rise

Why does the Geddon have 7 highs?

While the Armageddon was good in it's role, that role was viewed as somewhat redundant...

I still think the geddon should become a laser dmg/drone dmg dps death machine :/. The nuet range bonus is going to cause a whole heap of teribad problems.

Let's all be honest here for a moment, nobody knows how these changes will affect Amarr BS's until we get our hands on them. I am seeing alot of opinions based on how things are today and the changes proposed of tomorrow, the bottom line is nobody knows until we get them in battle with the other races BS's that have been changed as well.

And yes, Navy Armageddons are currently on a different level than the cheap but useful Armageddon.

No one ever said you "never" see them, they are a cheap and reasonably effective BS hull, but EvE wide they aren't used as often as other BS hulls (even when just considering Amarr).

Anecdotal evidence isn't very compelling.

I feel that having one of the 3 existing Amarr BS hulls based on the other traditional Amarr weapons system

Ever heard of a retrofit?

Fozzie was running level 4s fine before they adjusts pulse/beam lasers.

I think the Armageddon is pretty set in stone, unless something major happens when they test it in Sisi.

But that is only for when the changes are entered in game, and despite the pleas and requests from the player-base that these changes are fundamentally broken, perhaps a more physical request (letter) would be needed.

Translation from CCP's english to basic english: "We are happy to hear people who are happy with what we want to do. For those unhappy, Your opinion is very important. Peace, guys...".

Then, tadpole, perhaps you should hush.

Perhaps next time you feel the urge to proclaim that a dev who also happens to be a VERY accomplished combat pilot, not to mention expert commentator and analyst for the alliance tournaments, is a "tadpole" you will reconsider. Especially in light of your level of experience with the ships in question.

After further consideration, I am starting to question if the whole "tiericide" idea for battleships is a good idea in general.

Of course, we are all acting as we were incredibly spacerich and sneeze out technetium every few seconds, but fact is that for many players price is still a factor as far as battleships are concerned. (It surely is a factor for me)

The tiericide was incredibly helpful for the frigates and cruisers, both being so cheap already that cost was never a factor so only combat performance had to be matched.
But with battleships, cost becomes a relevant factor. For the cost of one Abaddon (around 240M) you could get about 3 Geddons (around 80 M).

Being cheap is a relevant niche and role of it's own.
I fear that with the upcoming adjustments to mineral costs, all battleship hulls will cost maybe around 150M isk, totally eliminating the option to go cheap and pushing those pilots into the already loathed tier 3 battlecruisers as the only remaining alternative.

I think the navy bc's will be a reason why people won't fly many of the battleships and the other is the remarkably unerfed ABC's

Not sustainable [...] The idea of MWD bonus on a laser boat makes little sense.

No. Just no. The Abaddon is NOT a drone boat.
6 lows is total blasphemy for an Amarr ship of the line. [...] (disregarding hull bonus)

Issue is, when CCP introduced MJD they shoudl have increased ALL battelships fittign to accomodate one more easily.

People have been asking CCp to become more accessable, more forthcoming with information and interaction, for as long as I can remember.

It's utterly predictable that when they go out of their way to do so there will be someone... like you... that complains about it.

"There's a very large... segment... of the population that just doesn't want to see the Geddon change."

I may have to make a pet project out of you.

No. read it again.

So if by "BARELY" you mean has 7326 PG left after fitting a full rack, then yea. Again Amarr are expected to run Scorch

425s have 4.8 km more base optimal and 4 km more base falloff than tachyons do.

five days later and still not a word said since this...

has CCP Kil2 Entered full on "ABANDON THREAD" mode... CCP Fozzie please save us from this baddie

And tachyons can only do EM and Thermal damage, which is naturally tanked against with all armor values. It's also part of the ONLY weapon system which is limited on the types of damage it can do.

And they require far more powergrid than their artillery counterpart.

And they use far more capacitor per second then their hybrid counterparts.



Individually, these aren't really that bad. But when you combine them on a ship that has almost the same powergrid as that artillery-fit vessals, and almost the same capacitor as those hybrid-fit vessels, with a ship class that is still running cap-intensive mods just like all the others.

The whole picture of the weapon system and it's preferred ship classes (taking in the Oracle as well) is where you see the flaw. Individual components aren't bad. The whole thing taken together is broken.

I actually like the bonus. It gives Amarr something unique

I don't really think the Abaddon needs to be changed. The resist bonus nerf isn't really THAT big of a deal for the Abaddon, and its cap is better than it was before with the changes to lasers.

what makes Minmatar more attractive, in general.

I only brought generic aspect

I don't think you'll find many people that agree with your sentiment that a Nuet range bonus is useless.

Oh ! So the resist bonus is actually useless then !

What puzzle me too is that there wasn't any fit used as baseline for complaints and requests. Only modules comparisons and cries of unfairness about cap use and PG.

I don't have an issue with someone not understanding how to fight with NOS/Nuet equipped ships, but to make a blanket statement that NOS/Nuet range is useless is highly amusing.

The battleships are now on Duality.

A Bhaalgorn will perform completely differently from the new geddon in combat. Different bonuses, and different capabilities.

Every ship in EvE is situational then. I'm not seeing your point.

(By the way, you might explain this in more detail for those that think Neuts are useless.)

Feel free. In return you can restrict yourself to comments that pertain to something you actually know something about.

To those of you ignorantly parroting partial quotes from CCP Devs...

They have made it abundantly clear all these balances are for PvP, what we are now trying to point out to them is that this does not address the huge and at times overwhelming problems with PvE that are overall apparently getting ignored.

Log Day 10: I fear I am the only one left....

Cap use reduction rigs are very effective on Laser Boats. I suggest you use them if you are struggling.

*I posted this in the wrong section earlier, my apologies:

I truly wish I had time to test these changes on Duality, but as I don't I've just been reading what others have posted so far. Judging from what's been posted about Amarr, CCP has given us the proverbial "finger." I really only say this because of the absolute lack of response in this thread from CCP reps while there's be so much outcry, theorycrafting, and suggestions. Then we have the actual test reports from a few saying that we, as Amarr pilots, are getting a bad deal here.

I JUST LOVE ALL THE CHANGES!


THANKS CCP!! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!

Yeah, I guess part of the drawback to so much active participation in the thread earlier is that now people worry we are gone.

We aren't gone. Fozzie and Ytterbium and I have been talking about the battleships almost every day still. After our last round of reviews we still feel that Amarr is likely in the best place it can be for Odyssey. We will keep watching closely as everything heads to sisi and if more adjustments are needed we will make them.

Tempest comments point to some possible issues, but they also exaggerate some things and great oversimplify.

If you are of a mind to think you can balance a complex system right the first time and never have to later make changes based on things you find out along the way, you probably shouldn't be balancing complex systems.

For justice thunders condemnation
A better world's in birth!
No more tradition's chains shall bind us
Arise, ye slaves, no more in thrall;
The earth shall rise on new foundations
We have been naught we shall be all.

As a long time Amarr pilot, I am very pleased with these changes.

Not trolling.

And do not dare to bring PVE into a balance discussion.

You fail to realize

I have removed some non constructive posts.

OP only received 20 "likes"

new Geddon, ... does fit the niche amarr designs.

And with the Abaddon obviously going up from a Maller, if we HAVE to have a drone boat, that leaves the Apoc.

What's wrong with simply putting amarr down and trying out other races? It's what I'm doing now (just bought two caldari ships, and will be training for minmatar to try them as well).

Vote with your choices. Don't wed yourself to amarr, even if you thought they were the coolest. I was born amarr too, but if the devs are hell-bent on punishing them, I'm not a sucker for punishment.

Vote with your feet. Leave amarr in droves. That way the devs can either accept a 3 race game, or do something about it. I think that would be far more effective than trying to reason with these people.

[quote=Tonto Auri]There's a rule that you don't do if you want your argument to be taken seriously. Don't threaten to quit.

OP only received 20 "likes"

Is there a chance to get amarr Skill points resetted ?
Could need Winmatar BS V and projectile instead of lazors after these changes

Remember cats that they are basing the geddon changes off of the popularity of the prophecy.

I mean, all my Gallente friends are flying them nowadays.

And I would probably sub my inactive Khanid character again who, unlike this character, does actually undock and enjoy the short, short line of pure Khanid ships like the Sacrilege, Vengeance, etc. There is more to Amarr that just lasers and armor.

I'm not fully understanding here. For instance, the claim of bringing homogenization to a race

CCP Rise tries to explain stuff there. click

They did design new Apoc with drone boxycles under its belly. click

Well, been nervous in that kind of situation its understable, I think.

Because the Armageddon had a 125m drone bay. No seriously, that's as far as the thought seems to have gone. The Abaddons actually used by people/fleets, so it is off the table as far as major adjustments go, while the Apoc doesn't have a 125m drone bay, and used to, a long time ago, be the ultimate sniper platform.

Does it really matter which of the hulls was used as drone carrier as long as bonuses are shuffled around anyway?

You are getting a ton of versatility and a chance to get out from the yoke of the limitations of lasers.

- Abaddon is, and has been since it was introduced, the massive fleet ship with no compare ..

great performance

in that theatre and still used even in the post-alpha Eve (albeit sometimes sporting arty itself ). Was good, will remain good .. in the large scale engagement.
- Apocalypse had/has range, it is probably the single feature of the hull that allows room for it on the market, however small. Adding tracking to that just makes it stronger at what it does and has done through the years .. now we just need to get rid (read: nerf into ground) tier3 BCs, sort potential cap issues and find a solution to probing making snipers lame ducks and it will dominate like nothing else.
- Armageddon was the cheap effective alternative, only used when range was not an issue and logis were sparce. Usage had dropped off since the last general EHP buff all those years ago and the hull itself only recognizable because its navy sibling became abundant overnight (thank you farmers ..|.. ).

Which would you choose to become the cross-racial platform? The one that does more of the same (Arma) or the one with a unique ability/bonus/feature and very illustrious history (fleets 6-7 years past were predominantly Apocs, vast clouds of laser toting Apocs blocking out the suns abusing the snot out of Tachs).

I just don't see this vast pool of players who look at the Amarr, say 'okay, I'm going to go neut-drones instead of lasers,' climb the tree, and then find themselves 'foiled' by the lack of a BS catering to their distinct needs.

Art resources are often cited as the bottleneck for many things.

To be honest, I'm really looking forward to all three hulls in Odyssey. Most of the complaints in this thread actually are talking about the crippling issue of Lasers. Not the hulls themselves being poor.

Is the Geddon a huge change, yes, but it also no longer feels overshadowed.

I've been watching some of the Fanfest videos, and I would like to share one in particular:

http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/b/395925361 at 3:01:49.

That might put into perspective how much has been going on for Odyssey.

I hope it helps to improve moods around a bit, it did for me! =)

So, many changes are just "fancy", but others, they really impact the core gameplay. Now, do me a favor and find the " * " (asterisk) I put up there in that list. Yeah, we are all ditching our heads out for that line.

It became then to me evident that CCP is putting a lot of changes, and if they are going to change more or less based on community feedback, that is something to be seen, but also how much impact and how all those changes will interact with each other. You can never foresee everything.

Second, in several other videos during the Fanfest, you can see that a lot has been going on in the company and the game. Related to this particular issue, you can check this video http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/c/2203986 (Ship Rebalancing), at 42:20. The guy is mentioning he can't use Railguns without running out of cap, haha, he doesn't even have a clue of how bad it goes for lasers. Pity the question was posed as he did, because he completely screwed the question, but it is clear that many players do face the problem.

Anyway, the "answer" if I can put it like that, is: "that is the intended gameplay for those ships".

Also, in this Ship Rebalancing video, if you want to watch it all

you might come to conclusions of your own about CCP Rise and Fozzie work and starting relationship. I won't comment on it, but it definitely helped me have a clearer picture.

He also got a response from Fozzie, not Rise. We don't know if Rise is under different constraints than Fozzie is in terms of time, ship balancing, etc.

Moreso when other race's Battleships are actively having turrets removed, and their damage bonuses buffed to compensate, specifically for the purpose of alleviating cap use.

You know you can use the 8 slots with mega pulkses for another role right...?

Come on, you don't do your argument any favors when you say 425's have more CPU than any other weapon....by a measly 6 CPU versus Cruise Launcher or less than 10% (only 9 more than Tach's). While Tach's require near DOUBLE more PG than 425's at 4125 versus 2310 for 425's. Remember Tach's use TRIPLE the cap as 425's as well.

Nobody is saying Beams shouldn't cost more cap or more PG, but there is a football field of difference between mega-beams/tach's and the other weapons when it comes to PG and Cap and we're just asking for this difference to be lowered so that these weapons actually get used by something other than a Nightmare since it is the only one that can actually fit them without gimping their fit beyond belief that they might as well use Scorch and save the tears.

If Tach's were as OP as you claim we would see them used more...or at all especially in fleet environments where cap isn't as much an issue and you wouldn't see Amarr ships fitting Scorch nearly 100% of the time (only taking a break to fit Arties).

I mentioned that, it's less than 10%, versus the 100% difference in PG the Amarr face.

@Tonto: Guessing you have never flown the Nomen .. RoF not only obliterates your crystals (only ship I have ever carried spare Scorch stack in) but suck you dry in a heartbeat .. not a pretty sight. Won't even think about what it would do without the cap redux bonus

Cap can be solved by:
1. Adding cap to hulls, which may result in unforeseen abuses (Apoc was a monster battery able to supply entire wings before!) and could neut down anything with a pulse).
2. Change cap modules/rigs (incl. elutri) to be 'better' so that less mods achieve same goal. Benefit (and downside) is that it would affect all ships/races and thus not be the end-all to close the gap with *new* Gallente in particular.

3. Marauder them up. Less guns, bigger bonuses = less cap consumption. Can be done to all ships across the races to ensure that slot count is not skewed beyond what spin can cover up. They actually did this with the Maller of all things, so there is definitely a precedent.

4. Add role bonuses to select ship classes, where the Amarr one would/could be cap based. Fully skilled Sacrilege is quite the Energizer Bunny for instance .. but doesn't have to be a hardwired bonus, could be module based such as "double effect from all integrated cap augmentations" (or however one phrases it to exclude injectors).

Im still wondering what changed between now and the devblog a few months ago that stated Amarr battleships were "mostly fine"

Hi

I'm usually not reading the forums. But the new ship changes got my attention.

I'm just going to throw in my opinion for now.

For me, the 'Geddon always was more like a Tempeste (attack BS).
If CCP is going to change it, Amarr won't have a BS in this role.

The Abaddon is much like a mini Revelation ATM. You can sit there, shoot your lasers. If you want to do anything else you need to waste a mid slot for a Cap Booster. If you have enough cap you're still a bit immobile, because the abaddon is really, really heavy/slow. If CCP really thinks this is an attack BS...

And I don't get why they want to remove the Cap bonus anyway. I always thought CCP did this, because capacitor means damage for Amarr BS (higher ROF = higher cap drain).

Please do not hesitate to flame me in case of total noobness


kcab

The main problem is CCP forgot the roleplay.

Amarr must be slow
Heavy tanked
Use a lot of capa.

Amarr don't need to be fast because they have the range. (normally)

Can't you say that about anyone's ammo switching though? The only advantage is you save the 5 or 10 seconds loading which I would trade any day for the fitting and cap usage. Switching from I.N. MF or Gleam and your dps drops like a stone anyway (but your cap usage doesn't).

Armageddon has a very nice bonus.
You say dumb?

Yes, Large Neuts have a Long Range. And now you get 50% extra.
And you are complaining?

The new Armageddon is amazing. Much better then the former Neutralizing/Vamp Dominix.

Now, lets look at the Apoc.
It gets 113 speed. The same as the Raven. It gets +19 speed, which is good.
That Debunks worse speed

It has a better tank than the Megathron (7000 vs 6500) but worse than the Tempest.
The tank of the Raven is similar.
So that debunks "Worst Tank"

Its bonusses are now Tracking and Optimal.
Situational? Sorry, it has the same tracking bonus as the Megathron.
It has Superior Optimal to the Megathron.
And you call both "situational"

Of course, I am sure you will do lots of testing and will give lots of feedback in the form of posts, statistics and even video's. That is the best way to provet hat the new Amarr Bs's are bad :)

DAT geddon.. Probably the coolest ship change so far. Welcome to the cheap alternative to the bhaal!

Range bonus on heavy neuts is not an op bonus. Dont compare it to Bhaalgorn.

seriously, why have you all just accepting this heap of ****?

I have perfect fitting skills as a former Typhoon pilot. And drone skills. And missile skills. And armor skills. And navigation skills. Yeah... I can make it work quite well.

*Amarrians* complaining about homogenization because a battleship almost no one used became a drone boat

buying one and using it are different. right now it's cheap as can be. hell, my naga costs the same amount. the geddon is a throw away BS with SOME usefulness right now. after odessey hits? it will be an expensive PoS. (Piece of ****)

why did you take away 2 slots for a mid slot? Was that maths fail? It now has 18 slots compared to the 19 slots of the Abaddon and Apoc.

And once again - as a drone boat Armageddon is outclassed by Dominix (and it should be),

The Dominix has 12,000 power grid versus the geddons 16,000, no missile hardpoints the same drone damage, drone bay one additional mid, and a drone optimal range bonus. If you think that makes the dominix a better drone boat, let alone, better ship your high and drunk.

I think the answer to this question is that beams (and possibly energy weapons as a whole) need to be visited with a full balance pass. This is not a problem that should get fixed through ship design, it should get addressed through a weapon system rebalance. As we are now finishing up balancing most of the 'core' ships in the game we will be looking to add more module balancing and I would think weapon systems would be near the top of the list.

The Apoc is not "supposed" to use beams. I don't really know how you took that from my description which says "It is also getting an increase to power grid and CPU so that beams are a more viable option in the future." All I meant to say was that we increased fitting while lowering PG need for beams and so hopefully it would be more viable now than before. We know beams still need work on their own, as I said above.

First of all, again, it isn't "supposed" to use beams. Even if it was, you really think increased tracking will never be relevant?

As for why tracking in general, I think there's a lot of reasons. Its makes the Apoc stand apart from the other two Amarr battleships in a very distinct and interesting way. It provides a niche for the Apoc in multiple environments. It offers a strong option to counter some of the most popular ships in PVP meta right now (attack BC and Tech 3 cruisers). It gives players who want to use Amarr battleships in smaller groups at closer ranges a new tool. It fits the idea of the attack role well. On and on.

Overall most of the concerns here seem related to cap or more specifically, beams.

The Armageddon/Dominix debate seems to remain heated, but I think its a really good sign that there's people arguing both sides so passionately, and we'll just have to see how it shakes out once it goes live.

Tonto, if/when Energy weapons get a real fix (Which really only needs the percentages we have been saying here and in the Energy Weapons thread), the Apoc will actually be in a pretty good place.

Go fit a dual plated mega pulse geddon on TQ, then go fit a dual plated mega pulse apoc on sisi.

Any one of these battleships can be used to run a mission, but you need to train into them. Slap cruise missiles and drones in a geddon and your set.

Although, seriously? Low SP characters and battleships? Go away, about all they are good for is an easy kill in low sec.

The normal geddon was not used much already in Missions. The best t1 and basically the only non bad t1 battleship for missions onamarr side was abaddon. The navy geddon and navy apoc were useful, but the plain geddon was a very poor choice.

You are obviously just to stupid to see the bigger picture.
The geddon is NOT a joke, it serves a purpose.

If you want a straight up drone boat, the obvious choice is a dominix over a geddon, because that is it's primary role. The geddon gets a bonus to neuts, which your an idiot if you can't see the potential for an almost 40KM neut range, and the ship also gets a good bonus to it's drones aswell.

NONE of those ships are half-bonused. Currently, 2 of them are because they are stuck having to use up a bonus slot for their guns. With these changes, they now have two effective bonuses each, and all they need is a slight rebalanced on energy weapons as a whole. It is not the ships fault that energy weapons have a problem, it is the weapons themselves, which Rise has said a few times, WILL be looked at.

And I never said there is anything WRONG with having low SP, I was implying that someone who has been playing for +/- 2 months shouldn't be jumping in a battleship and expecting it to preform well

Better yet. Tonto, how about you go on the test server, do up a geddon fit, take a screenshot of it, and explain to me, and everyone else, why it sucks. Because untill you do that, you can stfu and "go shine proudly in your corner"

You realize NONE of those you citede are T1? Learn to read before answering a post

Seems this thread isn't constructive. Everyone points the same concerns and issues again and again and again.

ahahahahahahaha, try harder noob. Check my killboard,

Oh, ok. But your an expert on Amarrian ships because you read about them in a forum topic,

With 7 neutralisers in the highs, the Armageddon does 25 x 7 = 175 GJ per second.

Trying to figure out what everyone's problem with Amarr battleships is, obviously.

Did you seriously just suggest an 8 laser capable, full damage bonused drones (even threw the mining yield in there for the lulz, huh? Cuz Domi doesn't get it), with the option of 6 launchers? I'm sorry but this proposal does the Dominix an even greater disservice than the proposed Armageddon does.

No dps bonus means it's now an Arty/ Neut boat like the Prophecy was for years. That has been the strength of Amarr for 10 years. They were never a laser platform. They just happened to be the only fleet that had the option to use them. They still are. When they aren't, the become an Armor tanking beast with a crazy Capacitor and in this case a Drone bay to boot. Logi the drone bays, add that to the weapons free capacitor tank and I'm thinking a Geddon fleet is going to be one SOB to kill.

I think the Geddon will take the place of Apoc for amarr mission runners..

Also, don't forget that, while Nuets don't kill rat cap, the AI is programmed to respond as if it had lost cap by stopping the programmed effects to simulate cap using mods such as reps and ab/mwd.